You have a few options:
Rather than refusing to sign your counseling statement, you can sign and write a rebuttal instead.
Option 1: You could refuse to sign. This does not usually help the situation and can ultimately put you at a significant disadvantage. If you happen to be working for an unethical leader, you empower them by not signing. The leader can simply write “Soldier refused to sign” and sign/date the form himself. At any later date the leader could write a counseling statement without your knowledge, and simply write “Soldier refused to sign.” You’ve set a precedent at that point. If you try to contest the counseling, the leader can say, “He always refuses to sign his counseling statements.” It then becomes your responsibility to prove the counselings did or did not take place. You are now on the defensive. The odds of this happening are slim but why put yourself in this position?
Option 2 (Recommended): Disagree with the counseling and write a rebuttal. If you need time to write your rebuttal you can request a reasonable period of time to respond to the counseling statement. Write “I request 24 hours to properly prepare my response to this counseling”.
If the leader refuses to allow you a reasonable time period to respond, write “I requested 24 hours to prepare my rebuttal to this counseling and SGT Doe refused to allow me adequate time to prepare my response.”
If he does allow you time to prepare your response, write “Please see attached sheet.”
Note: Refusing to sign a counseling statement shows a lack of maturity and professionalism on your part. It simply sets you up for failure. The best course of action is to disagree with the counseling and write your rebuttal. Make sure you get a copy of the counseling statement. You are entitled to a copy.
Comments
Mad Dog ( SFC, Ret.)
Over 20yrs, I have seen and been in this situation. So, anyone in this predicament has two choices:
1) Fake it, Til’ you Make it. Play the game and get along and be the YES Man.
2) Fight it, but do so in a professional and ethical manner. Know the Reg’s, no your rights, and handle all situations like the NCO you are.
If they still come after you, then those leaders are just vindictive in nature and are not true leaders, but are ego driven and don’t like to be showed up by their subordinates.
I have a buddy who is a recruiter and is locked in at 18yrs recently and has a MSG giving him a counseling on how to be an effective leader, read some book and do a 500+ word essay on what it means to be a leader.
So, my buddy did the damn essay, but I told him he needs to stand up for himself in a respectful way and tell his boss, “I am retiring and writing some essay or counseling is not going to help me when I leave in 2yrs”.
Sometimes, you have to stand up for what you believe in, but you always have to evaluate the situation, use COA’s, and make the ethical decision that not only benefits yourself, but those around you that might be effected by your decision.
In the end, life is about decision making. Sometimes it’s good, other times it’s bad. If you can live with your decision and still shoot, move, and communicate your pathway to your goals, then do what you think is right.
SGT NICK
I agree with 90% of what you said about standing up for yourself, rights, and career. Too many times NCO’s careers end because they did not fight for themselves when treated poorly. Great Advice!
The 10% I disagree with you on is the whole “I’m retiring in such and such years, months, days et cetera so I dont care what they do to me” when someone doesnt like their unit or leadership. These people are just riding out their time doing the bare minimum to get by usually hurting other Soldiers in the process. They are usually holding important leadership slots where subordinates need mentoring and it is nowhere to be found.
I always believe in putting in 100% till the end even in a bad unit or leadership.
Robert
Non-signed Counseling’s
As a legal document in a court of law, from the experience of a 1st SGT. When one of my soldiers went before a general courts marshal, the Soldiers unsigned counseling’s were dismissed from court as incriminating documents on the basis of “ Beyond a reasonable doubt “ always in favor of the accused.
The Soldier simply stated they had never seen these counseling’s, thus accounting them as an attempt of harassment and conspiracy agents the soldier, with the appearance of Toxic leadership. Bottom line these counseling’s were simply thrown out of evidence.
On a personal note, and after discovery there was some truth to the Toxic leadership, I believe by the Soldier not signing their Counseling’s did a smart thing in the long run. So in retrospect to the statement, By not signing a counseling only show poor judgment and the lack of responsibility, is an incorrect statement. It helped the Soldier to protect their legal right.
Mark Gerecht
Robert,
Great input greatly appreciate the you sharing this experience. I think this is probably an exception to the rule as most issues do not result in a courts martial but this is an option for Soldiers to consider. I just believe if you take the time to write your side of the story down and your leader is “Out to Lunch” the chain of command will see the light. The further away you get from the issue the less emotion plays a role.
I hope you will stop by again with more experience.
TOP
SGT NICK
I would have to politely disagree with your statements about toxic leadership TOP, far too many soldiers are trying to con the system to get away from doing the right thing. It stems from the poor quality of recruits the Army pushed through the system in the last few years. You never hear senior leadership talk about ‘toxic” soldiers that I believe are prevalently widespread in the Army.
Not every soldier will beat a court martial by refusing to sign counseling statements. Just like the civilian court system some crimes can be dismissed/acquitted for various reasons even if the accused is clearly guilty. My point is if a soldier believes that they will not be held accountable for their actions by refusing to sign counseling’s they will be sorely mistaken, and appropriate corrective training will follow. At the end of the day the soldier always has the right to appeal to the next higher level in the COC if they think my actions are inappropriate.
Part-Time-Commander
Chances are if a Soldier is going to be court-martialed, they aren’t a very good Soldier to begin with. Having led hundreds of people in my military career, I never had to do a negative counseling for a good Soldier. It was always the problem children that consumed all my time and received the negative counselings.
Most Soldiers are good and do the right thing.
Chuck
SGT NICK
Key word “request” but not mandatory, and no there are no specific rights that you are required to have you are not be charged with a crime. You do have the open door policy to talk to someone in your COC if you believe the offense or punishment is incorrect.
Part-Time-Commander
In 15 years of military leadership positions, not ONE time have I met someone being counseled who ever admitted they were wrong or messed up.
Just wanted to add that in.
Chuck
reynoso
what rights do you have when your are getting a counseling? i know you can request another person to be present if you dont feel comfortable with the one doing the counseling.
Mark Gerecht
As SGT Nick pointed out no rights. You should be treated with respect and dignity other than that be professional, listen, and if you disagree with anything simply disagree with the counseling and tell your side of the story in the space provide. If you have reason to believe you are being mistreated or the counseling is wrong seek resolution through the chain of command up to and including open door policy.
Did you find this information useful? We appreciate your feedback!
TOP
Part-Time-Commander
Good points, Mark. Be professional, write your comments in the space provided and address the issue with higher if needed.
Chuck
william
when getting a counseling and you receive a copy back does the person you are being counseled have to also sign the copy? If so and they did not how will that affect me?
Mark Gerecht
William,
Generally, Typically, Usually, this is seen as an administrative error and does not have an impact on the overall issue as long as the counseling and contents of the counseling actually took place the counselor could sign the document at a later date.
Did you find this information useful? We appreciate your feedback!
TOP
jen
Thank you this site has been helpful I can’t believe how many leaders will tell soldiers the wrong info. There needs to be a black and white standard and should be inforced. I have seen first hand how this causes issues and the soldier being counseled gets the short end of the stick. It is really sad. I have made it a point to learn this now that Im in my first leadership position. I will not misinform my soldiers
SGT NICK
Well there are a lot of regulations out there in the Army. Sometimes the counseling’s are not wrong just the context or minor details. You as a leader will not have all the answers for every situation you run into with soldiers. Right now I’m dealing with a deletion of orders which requires extensive paperwork and overview. Common knowledge among leaders is just to submit a 4187 which is only a quarter of what is required to get orders deleted. Also you will run into cases where you misinform soldiers because someone else misinformed you, this happens more than you would think- Hope this helps
SGTSTREET11B
Knowledge is power. You NEVER take someones word for any information when it has to do with regulations or duties. You always look it up and be as informed as possible. Everyone is talking about how hard it is to know all the regulations. Pull out your 500 dollar smart phone and look up the AR FM TC DAPAM or whatever is needed if you are not at a computer. It is to easy…
Preston
You’re absolutely right, SGT Street. If you don’t know the answer, know how to find the answer. It’s those fringe issues that aren’t easily associated with doctrine that are difficult to handle.
Part-Time-Commander
Good point, SGT Nick. I don’t know how many hundreds of different regulations there are, but there are a lot. And if you look hard enough you can find conflicting advice for the same issue. One regulation often contradicts another.
Just my thoughts.
Chuck
SGT NICK
Your leader can still burn you, this is how it is suppose to work when a SM refuses to sign. The supervisor needs to have two witnesses sign and write in the Leader Responsibilities section “SM refuses to sign the counseling and is aware of the Plan of Action/Corrective Training”. Give the soldier a copy and if they refuse to do the corrective training anyway then write the recommend UCMJ one. The witnesses need to be senior NCO’s or the Platoon Leader just in case they have to write sworn statements later. Either way I do agree that not singing the counseling puts you at a disadvantage.
Robert
Look at the beginning of the statement it seams to be all about burning the soldier, remember there are way to many Toxic leaders in the Military today at all levels. Retired 1st SGT
Part-Time-Commander
Robert,
There are lots of bad leaders in the military. I agree. But for every bad military leader, there are probably 10 good ones.
If you are good at your job and do the right thing, you don’t have too much to worry about.
Just my two cents.
Chuck
Morgan
The only problem with this site is not the info. it’s proof, acual proff that you can show people and say look here is the proof on paper in black and white…your wrong, or this is how you do it right
Preston
Morgan, part of the problem is that many of the topics discussed on this site are not directly regulated. We do try to reference Army Regulation as often as possible.
Thank you for your feedback! We will be looking even more closely for opportunities to cite the regs in the future.
Part-Time-Commander
Proving things can be very difficult sometimes. Everyone interprets things different; even regulations.
This website is a good starting point though.
Just my thoughts.
Chuck